S2M-5336 Custodial Sentences and Weapons (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Scottish Parliament

Thursday 11 January 2007

[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:15]

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Custodial Sentences and Weapons (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman): The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5336, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, that the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Custodial Sentences and Weapons (Scotland) Bill.

14:58

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16:27

Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): It is appropriate that I start by referring to Margaret Mitchell's concluding remarks concerning previous attempts to address the issue of early release. On three separate occasions in the chamber, I asked Annabel Goldie to tell me the price of the change that she proposed, but on each occasion she was unable to do so. It is difficult to support proposals that do not have a price on them, even if one thinks that the policy position that they support should be pursued. I suggest to my Conservative friends—I take the risk of describing them thus—that they consider the wider implications of proposals and avoid knee-jerk reactions.

SNP members have a number of significant criticisms of the detail of the bill, which we will pursue at stage 2 and, if necessary, beyond. However, we have no doubt that the fundamental question that we should address when considering how to vote at 5 o'clock is, does the bill meet a need? The answer, without question, is yes. I say that, of course, with regard to part 3 of the bill, which deals with knife crime and on which I will comment later. However, I also say it with regard to the provisions on sentencing. The existing system has fallen into disrepute and is in need of reform.

Phil Gallie: I take the member back to the point that he made earlier about costing and to the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Act 1997, which the SNP supported. A money bill, giving the costs, went through with the 1997 act and answered the questions that the member has asked.

Stewart Stevenson: Phil Gallie makes a fair point. However, the costs today are of course substantially different from the costs that applied at that time, for a whole variety of reasons. When discussing the matter with Annabel Goldie, I even suggested that the costs might come to £100,000 per cell place, in an attempt to draw out of her her view as to what they might be. Answer came there none—and I am sorry about that. Phil Gallie's liberal credentials in the debate have been substantially enhanced—up to the point when he told us that he joined Bill Walker in voting. Even without knowing the vote, I immediately know that liberal credentials could have formed no part of any vote that Bill Walker was involved in.

Will the bill rebuild public confidence? That is the question. When a judge makes a statement of sentence at the end of a trial, they must—after the bill is passed—be able to deliver absolute clarity to those members of the public who are present, be they victims or spectators, and to the press, if they are present, so that someone can note in their diary the fact that the person who committed the offence, of which some member of the public or their relative or friend was a victim, will not be out before such-and-such a date. That is probably the test that the public will apply to that aspect of the bill. There is scope in the bill, perhaps with some work at stage 2, to deliver on that objective. That is sufficient cause to support the principles encompassed in the bill.

We have to consider what happens when the gates of the prison open and the prisoner is released into the wider community. The bill describes very well what we should be trying to do. Section 36, on curfew licences, states:

"the Scottish Ministers must have regard to the need to—

(a) protect the public at large,

(b) prevent re-offending by the prisoner, and

(c) secure the successful re-integration of the prisoner into the community."

I suggest that that describes extremely well the whole purpose of what we should be trying to do under the bill—although those words happen to appear at that particular point in the bill just because of the draftsman's construction. Those are good tests to apply to the whole bill.

Let me apply that test to the 15-day sentence threshold. The minister helpfully told us that only two prisoner places, on average, are occupied by people who are sentenced to fewer than 15 days. The threshold is set at 15 days because that is the period during which one can do a basic assessment of the needs of the prisoner and build a programme to assist with their rehabilitation, thus serving the purposes that are set out in the bill, to which I referred. If it takes that long—if people are to go to prison at all—they should go for that 15-day period, so that we can assess their needs. On the other hand, if their crime is not sufficient to justify their going to prison for that period, we should not send them to prison at all. That is a simple point.

I wish to consider one or two aspects of the part of the bill that deals with knives. The bill covers issues to do with knife dealers. Those who wish to use a weapon for nefarious purposes and who consciously seek one to inflict harm may acquire their knives by other means. It appears that auctions can provide a way for knives to be commercially disposed of without a licence. Knives will still be carried. We must turn some focus to the issue of people carrying them and how we deal with that adequately, as well as to the issue of supplying knives, which the bill so helpfully addresses.

I thank the Law Society of Scotland for extending my vocabulary. Given that I am not a lawyer, I had not met the word "obtemper" before, but I shall treasure it from now on. Obtemper is a super word and I shall try to use it on as many occasions as possible. I have said obtemper three times so far. The Scottish National Party supports the bill.

16:35